How would you defend yourself?

[Derek Almeida]

We don't get the opportunity to defend this offense much anymore.  It has been awhile since I have faced a "flexbone" team.  Figured I would start a discussion on how you would defend yourself.  I know this can be tough because some of it could be personal based and also what specifically a "flexbone" team does well but just more in a general sense. Please include the front you base out of to begin with.

[Nick Medinger]

Our base defense is 3-5-3 and our base would be a stack 4-0-4 with DL/LB. I would stack and gap exchange with the 4 (4 will take dive most of the time, but not the whole game) with the OLB reading the slot back (if he inserts, so do you, if he arcs, you follow). MLB will flow NOW with the B back, the FS will go with the motion back and the backside OLB will rotate into the box for counter/cut back before dropping to help against a post. Our corners will play inside leverage to force the WR to outside release and squeeze them to the sideline.

[Mark Conlon]

Would you not be concerned with mid-triple to that defensive structure?  You M would be froze with the midline path of B.  The stacked LB on the front side would see the A back going in motion, and your safety would step the wrong way initially with that counter motion from the a-back?

[Nick Medinger]

Dec 28, 2015 17:47:43 GMT -6 Mark Conlon said:

Would you not be concerned with mid-triple to that defensive structure?  You M would be froze with the midline path of B.  The stacked LB on the front side would see the A back going in motion, and your safety would step the wrong way initially with that counter motion from the a-back?

We would still have the stack backer in the box and when the OLB saw the A back coming back towards him he would still have him on pitch. The only thing the counter motion would mess up would be the safety and he's not necessarily flowing downhill NOW, he's just flowing with the motion to make sure we don't get put in a bind on a pass (if A back motions it turns a doubles formation into a trips formation and if the safety doesn't move over they can easily outnumber us on PA pass). He doesn't work downhill until he knows it's a run. Also remember, no defense can take everything away that an offense does, but it should be designed to force them into something they don't want to do. It also isn't the ONLY thing that the defense would do, just what we would hang our hat on to try to make for a long night for the offense. How would you attack yourself?

[Mark Kleinpeter]

I always seems like it's easier to come up with ways to stop yourself because you know the weaknesses of your players.

I am not a defensive guy, and I've never been the "what if they do this" type of guys. Obviously you can always win the battle on the grease board if you have the chalk last.

I'm interested in 2 things, what do they do? and what are the personnel matchups?

If I'm defending an option team, then I'm looking at who's their best player and I'm trying to prevent them from letting that guy have the ball. I'm going to try to figure out if they actually read the option plays or do they just call it (tell QB what to do). I'm also going to look to see if they have "answers" for when I give them a steady dose of a particular stunt or game where I'm able to force them to give the ball to the person I WANT them to give it to. Basically, do they have tags to change the blocking scheme to beat my stunt?

I'm also going to look at personnel matchups on the OL or with A-backs/WR's and try to magnify their weaknesses at those positions, especially with the Center position or with perimeter blocking.

We always have trouble offensively when one or several of the following things happens:
1. our Center gets whipped
2. we can't get the LB's blocked.
3. we get out-physical'd on the perimeter (WR/A)

[Coach Hanson]

We have not seen many true triple option teams but when we have this what I have done and have had some success with it.

We will operate out of a 3-4/5-2 look.   2-4i's, 1-0 tech.  ILB's over OG's.  OLB's shaded outside of A backs..

Our NT will vary his play - sometimes playing strong A gap, sometimes we just let him choose.  

I typically will have my DT's pinch on the mesh of the ISV.  I've used my biggest and most explosive DT's to get this done.  This past year, I had 2 kids who could get off the ball and stood 6'5 302lbs and 5'11 260lbs.  We caused a ton of problems not only in taking away the dive but also bending the QB much further off of his track.  Instead of replacing the dive key, he really has to work get around all of the garbage.  

Our ILB's are responsible for QB playside.  We gap exchange everything whether we are playing triple or wing t or spread or whatever.  Our ILB's are used to the philosophy. 

We can get caught up in the wash with PS OT veer releasing onto him.  However, if our DT's are really causing havoc on the mesh, it does help buy us some time and allows our guys to get in position.  

Our OLB's are responsible for the pitch man.  We teach them to get their hands on the slots and cross key the other slot.  We will hit the opposite slot everytime he ventures into our area via motion or not.  We also have secondary pitch support from our safeties.  We play 1/4's as much as possible and this allows our guys to get down hill but still reading #2.  If we don't see triple action, our DE's will play QB with our safeties playing pitch.  

We have yet to see a good triple team employ some counter option that could confuse our reads.  We also haven't seen the variety of tags that some teams do.  I know many of these things would/could get us in trouble.  But, this is what we've done with some success.  Bottom line, we want to take away the dive and make the QB beat us.  To me, you need a capable fullback in this offense, if he's not and your just running rocket and lead/sprint options, there are better ways to run those plays out of better formations.  

[Sean Berry]

As a DC I hate seeing this offense.

I don't try to switch things up too much for the DL. We are a "block-down-step-down" team based out of a 31 front 4-2-5. So, the DE tackles the dive, the PSLB runs a gap exchange and tries to get over the PST to get to the QB.

The PSOLB attacks the LOS and squeezes the QB's alley. This gives the LB a chance to work over and hopefully get the QB to pitch the ball backwards rather than parallel to LOS. The FS runs the alley for pitch, and the OLB rallies to pitch. CB is considered bonus late support to pitch, always outside in.

Ran into problems when DE got lax, or LBs can't defeat cut blocks.

I want to play games with perimeter guys, but this has been ok for us due to 100% two way players and limited reps. Out of the same look I would like to have a Switch that allows the OLB to attack the QB and FS to fly to pitch or a SWAP where OLB crushes the pitch man allowing the PSLB and FS to account for the QB, but time is limited. (This is how we played it out of the 3-5 stack because we have that extra backer.)

The way I am doing it now, no rules change for anybody and they play fast.

[Derek Almeida]

We are pretty similar Sean in what we do against it. We are a 4-2-5 but will balance up and play a traditional 4-4 look with a 3 deep FS. Force the team to execute all 3 phases and run the FS to pitch. Our change-up would be to put the PSLB on the dive and mesh charge with the end to the QB. I like to play slow with the OLB but force the QB to pitch. If I can play this offense 3 deep then I will. Teams we have played fortunately do not execute the vertical or rocket game very efficiently. Conversely we try to exploit the 3 deeps in our own offense with our vertical threats so I like seeing this look. Tough run heavy 4-4 OLB's and a screaming alley free safety can be disruptive. If a team were able to execute 4 verticals efficiently I would get more into our split field 4-2-5 look and play more hashmark based (glad I have not had to). It's funny, I would actually defend my own offense differently then I defended others that our similar.

[Mark Kleinpeter]

Feb 22, 2016 18:30:00 GMT -6 Derek Almeida said:

We are pretty similar Sean in what we do against it. We are a 4-2-5 but will balance up and play a traditional 4-4 look with a 3 deep FS. Force the team to execute all 3 phases and run the FS to pitch. Our change-up would be to put the PSLB on the dive and mesh charge with the end to the QB. I like to play slow with the OLB but force the QB to pitch. If I can play this offense 3 deep then I will. Teams we have played fortunately do not execute the vertical or rocket game very efficiently. Conversely we try to exploit the 3 deeps in our own offense with our vertical threats so I like seeing this look. Tough run heavy 4-4 OLB's and a screaming alley free safety can be disruptive. If a team were able to execute 4 verticals efficiently I would get more into our split field 4-2-5 look and play more hashmark based (glad I have not had to). It's funny, I would actually defend my own offense differently then I defended others that our similar.

No offense to you guys and the 4-2-5, but we have had great success against that front, especially throwing the ball.

That front has a couple of weaknesses, or the shell I should say has some weaknesses. Obviously you guys have highlighted the vertical threats against 3 deep coverage. The other thing that I believe it struggles with is flat defender and force conflict.

We are going to attack those 2 things in the following ways:

1. Put flat defender in run/pass bind with play action. Can't stop Toss or force and also defend flat.

How: Boot pass, Toss Play action pass (Switch), Sprint out from motion to Trips

2. Stress 3 deep and also Flat defender with Verticals and Out Routes

How: Stretch the field vertically and horizontally. I don't really like running 4 guys vertical because i think it muddies things and if guys aren't disciplined in their routes then you are actually giving yourself less space to throw the ball. By running a combination of Verts and Outs, we can create a good amount of space to allow our guys space to operate. We are going to tag our routes so that either the A or WR is running the Vert concept and the other guy (A or WR on that side) is running the Out concept (12-15 for WR, 7 for A). This allows us to put vertical pressure and still attack underneath defender at the same time. Obviously we run these out of Play Action so we normally still put the Flat defender in Run/Pass bind and it helps us to get easy but big-play throws.

One thing that I really believe you can have success doing in high school against this offense is to MAKE the offense do what you want them to do. What I mean by that is you can dictate who gets the ball by stunts. Most people don't have a lot of tags or expertise to deal with it. At all levels of football, it comes down to matchups. In high school, it's often easier to key in on the 1 or 2 guys you need to stop. You don't have to stop every play. You have to stop those 1 or 2 guys. What ways do they like to get those guys the ball? Figure out what those ways are and set up your stunts accordingly. Figure out who can't beat you and make them give that guy the ball. No offense to anyone on here, but most guys lack the experience or expertise to make these in-game adjustments or they don't practice against all these different stunts on a daily basis. Will you give up a play or 2? Sure, but don't let their stud beat you because you feel that you have to "play by the book" and stop everything. Stop what they're good at and don't miss tackles.

[Rick Walsworth]

Anyone else get uncomfortable having this thread on here?

I vote we LOCK it and only make it able to be VIEWED after doing the DOUBLE SECRET HANDSHAKE and giving the SECRET PASSWORD...

[Matt McLeod]

We haven't locked it because it promotes thought but one of the better ways we have been defended is out of a 4-3 concept where they #3/#2 exchanged to the field or strength and scrape exchanged (squeeze/scrape) into the boundary or weak.

[Rick Walsworth]

No offense intended, Matt. Comment was made mostly in jest...though I hate to think about DC's trolling the site to learn the ways they can give us problems.

How about a retinal scan for all users?

[Matt McLeod]

Hahahaha, retinal scan might be in order!!! I know you were joking. The great thing about this forum is at least you have to request to join and just can't pop in and see everything.